Perspectives with Kemi Marie

Finding Your Way: Beyond Religion, Fear, & Social Judgment

• Kemi Marie • Season 1 • Episode 2

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What does it mean to follow your own path? How can we redefine the idea of "good" and "bad" when discussing the human experience? How does religion impact our judgments and ideas of where to go in this life? 

In this insightful episode of the Perspectives Podcast, I reunited with a long-time friend and historian, Ehi, to delve into a deep conversation about deconstructing traditional religious norms,  morality, and how to navigate the complexities of right and wrong.

Through heartfelt stories and insightful reflections, we analyzed the complexities of forming personal morals and ethics in the face of religious dogma and social judgment. 

Celebrating the liberation that comes with questioning and redefining one's beliefs, and the importance of following your inner compass, Ehi and I emphasize the deeply personal nature of the human experience.

Tune in to explore how to live a life that's truly your own, free from the constraints of societal judgments and expectations.

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https://www.kemimarie.com/coursecatalog


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Kemi Marie:

Welcome to the Perspectives Podcast, where truth meets wisdom. I am so excited to have you on this podcast because I've literally. What did we meet? We met like 20, was it 2019 or 2020? 2019., 2019. And we were just in such a different space.

Ehi Obanor:

I know Very different, very different space.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, and I just feel like, yeah, we had our little separation of no reason, um, but coming back, first of all, we both graduated from college and, yes, congrats to us both. Congrats to us both for real. We made it okay, but a lot, a lot, happened during that time. We both grew, we both expanded ourselves and ended up figuring out that we have a lot of the same interests, very much because you were smart you're a smart bitch, just saying very smart. You be last word of god, dog, the amount that you read and take in information and fucking history and all this shit, you know I'd be like okay, what's your big three?

Ehi Obanor:

So we have a Virgo, sun, 10th house. Cancer moon, 8th house. Stars rising yeah, my chart is everywhere. Yeah, rising, yeah, my my chart is everywhere.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, I think that's honestly a great combo for you to have and I can see how different like parts of it play into your life and I feel like, with that, the sad you're sad rising, my sad son like we just, and our eighth house placements yeah, we get it we understand the desire for exploring, like deeper knowledge and things that need to be explored, things that maybe people don't think about too often or want to hide from.

Kemi Marie:

And, yeah, I'm very comfortable with it. You know and I'll flex with that so thankful to have you in my life and I know you as I know you. Feel free, please do introduce yourself to everybody who is listening today.

Ehi Obanor:

Alrighty, so my name is Ehi. I'm from New Jersey.

Ehi Obanor:

You said that with a little accent. Yeah, we're from the East Coast up north and I am very, very, very into knowledge Like that's just the best way I can summarize it whether it be astrology, spirituality. I want to say astrology is really how I got introduced to this community of spiritualists and just higher thinkers, higher learners. I was a history major. I have a degree in history and a minor in Africana studies, graduated summa cum laude, the highest honors, let's get it right. And now I'm working in library services and studies, probably going to go to law school. I'm just very all over the place, but I do have direction, like it's all. It's all for a singular purpose or multiple purposes, but you know, I just I'm very passionate about a lot. If you follow me on twitter, it's first name, last name, spelled o-b-a-n-o-r, and you can find me on instagram at guardianangel, with two l's, and you'll see that I'm very into the arts, very into literature and just sharing what I know and creating community out of that.

Kemi Marie:

You're a natural teacher for the in-person spaces that you're in and the online, yes, and I feel like you, just you a walk-in, you a walk-in book yourself. I'm walking a cycle, but at the same time, I think my favorite part is, at the same time, you know how to have so much fun and just be free. Yes, and. I absolutely love that about you. So, period, when did you know that you wanted to be like a history major, like what happened?

Ehi Obanor:

Oh, my God All right.

Ehi Obanor:

I feel like everybody has this moment, or at least people who major in the humanities have this moment. I actually actually, for the longest time, wanted to be a plastic surgeon. I wanted to be alive, I'd be all, I'd be all over the place for I want to see the. This was post-graduation of high school too, so you know you have to hunker down like you gotta choose. So I really started thinking about what mattered to me and at the time, um, I had just come out and, um, I grew up in a west african household like very religious, very christian, and there were just certain things that I could not wrap my head around about. Why, like, I didn't like them.

Ehi Obanor:

Um, at the same time, I had had always loved history. That was my strongest subject, history and English. So that lust for knowledge and like the origins of things, like why are things the way they are, it all just kind of it really hit me like a light. I was like I should major in history and I didn't realize how much stigma there was with historians and history majors. One is the pay. Two, people just don't understand it. People think you're just reading all the time. But history is one of those majors where, outside of it. Giving you knowledge, you gain so many skills that are usable in all types of areas. I cannot tell you how many people just don't know how to do research. People don't know how to read analytically. People don't know how to write. You might know what two plus two is, but, girl, you paying me to write your essay. So, yeah, I went to Delaware State University, my illustrious HBCU. Before I applied there, I had applied to Howard University and that is another HBCU.

Ehi Obanor:

It's probably the most notable one that people think of. I had actually applied to be a biology major, but I minored in performing arts, so I actually played the cello for a very long time, for like 12 years I didn't get into their essentially like their science program for my major, but I did get in for music, so I was like whoa. But lo and behold, I look in the mail and I have a letter from delrissa university and I was reading and I was like I've never heard about this school like never, ever ever.

Ehi Obanor:

I didn't even know too much about HBCUs myself, outside of the ones that are very big, but I did my research. I found their dance team. It was it's very diverse in terms of the styles of dance they do, but they're very known for doing hip-hop and I just fell in love. I was like this is my school, like this is my place, and, sure enough, four years later, well, five years later, we, that's my, that's my alma mater. So it was a process, but I, it was very ordained and, like I can see now, looking back, hindsight is 2020 that the the path forward is very clear. It's just, it was just a matter of acceptance.

Kemi Marie:

Honestly yeah, no, absolutely. You were actually invested in what you were learning, like you're a sponge, you know.

Ehi Obanor:

Yes, I felt like it tied into my identity, so much Like I resonated with what I was doing, so much so that it was like I never had a day where I woke up and I was like, oh my God, I'm dreading doing this Like I loved school.

Kemi Marie:

I loved all of it Every year. Yeah, same. See, that's. You're always learning something Like when it's something you love like for me it was philosophy it's like, oh cool, I'm going into class, we're about to learn about this argument, and then we're also going to talk about it's. A lot of discussion, a lot of critical thinking. Right, it's nice.

Ehi Obanor:

And how would you say you got into spirituality, sort of like I segued from astrology to spirituality. Um, and like I feel many people can say, I actually going through my first lesbian, you know, the in the infamous a canon event and it wasn't that like she was an astrologist or astrologer or anything, but she was just more privy to what certain things actually meant, and it inspired me throughout our relationship.

Ehi Obanor:

It was very short to just find out about more, and I did. And then, after the relationship, I was in a very dark place and astrology just found me. I don't know what it is about social media, social media algorithms. It was the same thing with spirituality. So I want to say I spent maybe two, three years just like learning about astrology, just so enamored by it, and then spirituality found me and it was. It was very subtle, it wasn't like a big shift, but I guess my I don't know my feed, it was just a natural flow. One thing in the other you know, so I started.

Ehi Obanor:

I think you were one of the first people I actually seen.

Kemi Marie:

Really.

Ehi Obanor:

And I was like, yeah, that's so funny. Uh, you, I'm going to. If I had like a top, there's probably like a top three, maybe five people where I just followed immediately. Um, at the time, like posting readings, free readings, just general readings, was very big when I found spirituality. So there was that feeling of like, oh my god, how does this person know, you know that's what really got me.

Ehi Obanor:

It was like how do you know? And yeah, so I sort of just see that there was also a community and at the time I wasn't really doing too much in terms of like the actual self-actualization part of spirituality, it was just. It was just that thing you look at.

Ehi Obanor:

That's like so interesting, but it's also weird and you're like I don't know what none of this means, but I'm gonna like it. Um, and then, yeah, life just started to pick up and it started to get real and spirituality was just there. It wasn't something I went to look for, it really just found me. I always say that astrology and spirituality found me in a time of need and through that I was able to find my identity, learn more. Like people always say, oh, you're so insightful. I'm like, when you like, the knowledge is really within. That's. That's the thing. There's knowledge out there, but the interpretation of it and incorporating it into your daily life is really what helps it stick and what gives you credibility to even speak, speak within the community, give, give advice.

Ehi Obanor:

So, yeah, for all of my college career, yeah, for all of my college career I was just very into spirituality. Astrology is still like my love. I have so much love for it. But spirituality just helped me in a time. Again, I'm going to go back to coming out deconstructing. I knew that there was something so spiritual and almost godly about the universe, but I just could not learn to accept it and I couldn't identify with organized religion any longer.

Ehi Obanor:

So spirituality was there. It was just like, oh, and that's the thing I don't think people really talk about when you grow up Christian, they don't teach you that there's anything else. They almost fear longer you into thinking that, like, this is the only way. So it's like when you are faced with things that literally go against your human nature, right as a lesbian, it's like, well, how can, how can I do both? Spirituality was my way out of a very confusing and like dark place and I was able to find my identity and honestly garner so much self love. There was so much shame within organized religion for me, so much confusion, just feeling like so impure and just not what I know. The God I want to be following and listening to would be thinking of me. The God I want to be following and listening to would be thinking of me. And so, yeah, that was, I want to say, the main thing that really had me stuck with spirituality. And then, obviously, you have the tools, so the crystals, the tarot cards.

Ehi Obanor:

And tarot was another way that helped strengthen my relationship to the creator, um, and it helped me cultivate very spiritual relationships like, for example, I'm on kemi's podcast, one of the people that was just very um. Through this I want to say through discernment, though, because I will say like there's a lot of people within the community that's just like oh, you and I could never, we could never Ever.

Ehi Obanor:

But you really need some great people who all just have the same, the same focus as you and just want really just want the good for all, and I just could not find that before. Spirituality, yeah and yeah, what not? Find that before spirituality.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah and yeah. What did you find before spirituality? What was your religion?

Ehi Obanor:

So the crazy thing is and I do want to say it didn't stop after I became spiritual quote unquote, either, like I'm still a human and I had a very hard time like coping with that or accepting that as that. Okay, just because now I have this understanding of what's going on doesn't mean other people do. I used to be so confused. I'm like okay, I found my me, my inner yin and yang. Why is everybody else not on the same page? It was so confusing. Yeah, before spirituality I would say I would meet people who were just so the best way I can say is lost. And it's not even in the sense of like you know, sometimes I would say sometimes people don't know who they are. But I think sometimes people just do things and there's like no rhyme or reason behind it. I'm the kind of person where it's like everything doesn't need to have a reason. But I think that my consideration for others was just I just could not get down with the way certain people would behave or like present themselves. That's very real.

Kemi Marie:

And when we're out here talking about previous religious spaces we've been in in the beginning a lot of people, when they remove themselves from certain religious spaces, I'll say like christianity or whatnot. Um, you can have those moments of like. Wait a minute, okay, I feel like I just had an awakening. I just discovered this. Like what? What? The?

Kemi Marie:

fuck are y'all doing, and then you can get into this space of look like there's another way, why aren't people, why aren't they going this way? And then you start to realize, wait a minute. You kind of wake up in a sense and you realize everybody might just be following what the fuck one person said was good. Um, and we also might have. Just it's similar and I'll call, I'll say it's compulsory. There's a lot of things that we do that are very compulsive, and also if you're placed in a certain environment like of course you're going to church, or they teach you that this is the way, as if there is just one way.

Kemi Marie:

So when you come out of it, you could definitely have that moment of like what the fuck, definitely have that moment of like what the fuck, and some people will take that moment and run with it and gain the same superiority complex that a lot of there.

Ehi Obanor:

Oh my god, you, you hit the nail.

Kemi Marie:

There's a lot of spiritual people who will take that shit and run with it and become the same dogmatic ass, but they'll just, you know, get their little superiority complex and be like, well, I'm spiritual and this is the way and this is, this is how it's supposed to be, and they end up perpetuating the very issues and the systems you know, the hierarchies and the bullshit you know yeah, because and this is the thing like this conversation is so nuanced, you have the awakening, but there's a way to go over the edge, you know, it's like.

Ehi Obanor:

I feel like spirituality in itself is the understanding that there's no right or wrong way. Your focus should be always you and your relationship with whatever divine being you believe. But I think sometimes that people don't really undo the compulsion or the conditioning of it all. It's just like I've shifted practice. So it's like I still have the same type of closed mindedness or the same type of superiority complex, or I'm still very conditioned within the patriarchy and within capitalism. Within the patriarchy and within capitalism, I've just changed the name of what that specific practice is in terms of my religion, but I haven't changed in terms of my character.

Ehi Obanor:

And I think it's scary and honestly, I think that's one of the, I would say, qualms either religious people or just non-religious people or just onlookers have with the spiritual community. It's like what, why should I listen to you? And that's so fair. Be have that discernment and it.

Kemi Marie:

It's actually that. Let's see, that's the thing is, everyone thinks that they have the way, that they know the way like this is the way like we need to, just like the way you know what I mean.

Ehi Obanor:

It's okay to say I don't know.

Kemi Marie:

Everyone thinks they have the way, and I think it more importantly. My thing is, I might know the way for me, okay, but when I, when I talk about religion. When I talk about spirituality and I genuinely believe this is what separates the certain practitioners is who do you think has the way? And in my opinion, I'll say my perspective is that the way is up to you.

Kemi Marie:

It's about your way, what's good for you, what's right for you, what is your path? So when people I understand the tendency to distance from religion, right, be out of you know, because religion has fucked up, fucked over a lot of people. It's just cheap and a buck. It has caused so much harm in so many communities. I understand the how repulsed you can feel, you know. But when you jump into a new practice, I think it's still important to recognize that, hey, maybe you've just found your way and everyone else has a different way. And, yes, we can still talk about the layers of things, why people follow things blindly. But I still feel like you still want to have, like you were talking about earlier, you still want to have an understanding of why you believe what you believe. Like, ultimately, regardless of whatever path you take, your way is your way and you still want to know why you're believing what you believe. As long as you have a good idea of the history and of whatever you're practicing and it makes sense and it feels good, then that's your way.

Kemi Marie:

But that doesn't nest that. Maybe that's not. Maybe somebody else's way is the religious way. Maybe somebody else's way is this is I'm a Libra seventh house. I feel like this is the most Libra shit I could say, but that's just how I view it and I feel like that's. What separates a lot of practitioners is how they're, how they're thinking philosophically how they're thinking philosophically, how they're guiding other people, whatnot, um.

Kemi Marie:

But overall, it's not just in religious and spiritual spaces that people think, in that black or white thinking, you know, um, and we all have these. We all have ideas of the way, we all have ideas of right, wrong, good or bad. But I think it can be said that when you're in a space that literally forces something down your throat and tells you this is the way, this is the right way, like especially for us, we got sad placements Like it's just easier when you feel that ostracization, when you feel the outing, the abuse, all of that stuff right, wrong, then it's easy to be like, well, fuck this shit, I'm not going to be here because that doesn't feel good.

Kemi Marie:

That doesn't necessarily feel good to you the outing, the abuse, the ostracization, the betrayal, the black and white thinking. It can easily force people not even force people, but just make people feel like that's not the space they want to be in. If we're being honest, we know a lot of people don't like to do shit when they're told that they have to. Then if you look into the history, when you actually start looking into the history of it and it really don't make sense, then you get to this place of well, why the fuck am I here? Then that's where. That's where I was. This idea that everyone knows the way, that everybody knows the path, leads many people off of their own path. It leads many people to believe in outer systems more than they believe in their inner compass. And then when you rely heavily on outer tools, outer systems, outer compasses of good, bad, right, wrong, what you should and shouldn't do, when you rely heavily on that more than you strongly know your inner compass, then you end up traveling this foreign-ass path and you end up honestly feeling like an imposter in the world because you're following core directions from a compass that isn't even your own, and this is something that like sure we might, you and I might be spiritual, religious beings or we might have experienced these things, um, but it extends beyond that, like it extends beyond the things that we practice. It ends up infiltrating literally every decision that you make. Oh you should be doing this, oh you should be doing that. And my therapist shout out.

Kemi Marie:

My therapist, my therapist was actually like we need to let go of these judgment words. That really changed my perspective back then. We need to let go of these judgment words. It's funny because even if I were to say need, need to, she would be like that's a judgment word, she's more. It would be beneficial if we stop saying should and shouldn't. Oh, I should get up, I should do this, I should, you know, because these are words rooted in, like who says you should, who said you shouldn't Right, who said that you laying down for an extra five minutes in your bed is a bad thing, and like it really might be if you got to go to work, you know in like 30 minutes.

Kemi Marie:

But is the work going to be there? Is work going to be there? Hello, the work not going nowhere. When we're thinking about what's good and bad, what's right and wrong for ourselves, whether that's personal decision or something bigger, such as what religion we're practicing. There are so many factors to it. When you were younger because you were talking about you yourself, like having basically tension between your own inner identity and the religious principles that you grew up with do you think that that religion determined what you viewed as right and wrong for a long time?

Ehi Obanor:

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. Even just outside of the Ten Commandments and Bible verses that talk about sexuality, or just the Ten Commandments, oh, that I shall not steal or covet. It was more than that. I want to give attention to right now is that, even though there are certain principles that are laid out on paper and have specific verses, there's also a conditioning to it, right? So, even if you are not hearing certain things, you are then conditioned to question everything that makes you an individual or a human being, and I feel as though that is why people are so tied to religion, like that's why religion is their identity, like there's no them without religion as a human being. There's the human and then there's the spiritual right. When you're religious, you grow up hearing oh, you're not of this world, you're not of this world. So when you are faced with a world of worldly shit, right, because you're not of this world.

Ehi Obanor:

You're not of this world. So when you are faced with worldly shit, right, because you're a human being, you look to a spiritual or a celestial guidebook or person even, and in every meaning of what it means, in every way that a human is a human and spirit is spirit. It's immeasurable. So that's where the shame comes from, and the and the low self-esteem and the low self-worth. It's because christianity is, it strips you down of your identity and who you are. So when you're making decisions, uh, a lot of the time you don't actually know if that's what you want to be doing. It feels like that's what you should be doing.

Ehi Obanor:

I was just watching a video of the symptom. She put it beautifully she was a Christian and she was homophobic. But she started to meet people out in the real world and started to love people who are a part of the community, and so she could just not understand why she was supposed to hate these people. Right, Because she loved them. So that is what I mean in terms of not actually being able to choose for yourself what it is you feel is right or wrong. It's just embedded into you. So for the longest time when I started to realize, okay, like I don't like men, Like I like women, I've been taught that this is wrong. I've been taught to not like people who are like this. They say hate the sinner. I mean love the sinner, hate the sinner, whatever. That's just a whole bunch of BS for me, but I'm like now I'm that person. Now it's me.

Ehi Obanor:

And a lot of people don't have that experience. So they're able to, you know, be on the outskirts and they're able to have these judgments. But I couldn't have that judgment anymore. So I had to ask myself well, did I ever really feel like it was wrong in the first place? No, I didn't feel like I was told I should.

Ehi Obanor:

Mind you, I had no reason to actually think that I had, uh, someone a part ofbtq plus. They never did anything wrong to me, you know. So it's just like religion just kept me in a space of not thinking for myself, not forming my own opinions, until I allowed myself to be of this world what they don't want you to do so much, and a part of me came to understand that the reason that is was because it would undo all the conditioning. I did not tell you how many times I would be interested, like, oh, when you go to college, when you go to high school, people are going to try to tell you this that and that Like literally you're making it seem like other human beings who, like, just thought for themselves, were just thinking Like, and it's just crazy, like.

Ehi Obanor:

But that's part of the adoption, as part of the indoctrination and the conditioning.

Ehi Obanor:

It's fear, it's so fear-based it's so shame-based, yeah, um, and I just can't do it anymore. So I, after I deconstructed, I literally felt like I knew nothing. That that's that's the feeling, and I think that's why a lot of people don't want to do that. Like I said, their identity is within it. So it's like now I don't have this anymore. So who am I? What do I actually think is right and wrong for me? Uh, in terms of just ethics or morals, but just, you know, in in terms of the world, like what am I? What type of treatment I'm going to? Am I going to laugh from other people? What is my limit?

Ehi Obanor:

What are my boundaries? What do I enjoy, what do I absolutely loathe? Things like that that are coming from deep within me, in my experience and who I am and how I grew up, or just my journey. What do I want for myself and what was just what was told to me? Having the separation of both was the best thing I could have done for myself.

Kemi Marie:

That actually like wow, just making a few different connections. As you're speaking, people follow the rules from a place of fear of others. So in religious spaces, what you're echoing is that many people's decisions to even act in certain ways are based upon this relationship that they have with God, which is one of fear-based. It's fear-based, you know. So it's not necessarily I'm moving like this because this is what feels good to me. That's not the first principle, that's not the first, what do you call it? That's not the first thought, that's not the first requirement. The first thought is I'm moving like this because so and so says so, even if that so and so is god also.

Kemi Marie:

I'll just preface this with I grew up christian. I had a great relationship with christianity. Um, even when I left the church, like nothing, nothing happened. I just moved into a different religion that aligns with me. So my relationship to god and Christianity is pretty fine. Just went into philosophy of religion, started learning things. I was like this religion makes no fucking sense. I was like this don't make no sense on no level. So that's what got me out of it. But I don't have beef with Christians or Christianity. I understand literally all I get it. You know what I mean.

Kemi Marie:

But from a logical perspective, it's very interesting that the foundations that many religious people walk with is monotheistic religions. I'm going to say monotheistic religions and a lot of Abrahamic religions, because those tend to be the ones that operate from a fear-based space. Be the ones that operate from a fear-based space. It's like I'm doing this thing that's quote, unquote right, because God says it's right, and then there's that condition of and if I don't, I'm going to hell. Okay, so that is this fear of others, that's a fear of somebody else.

Kemi Marie:

Well, when you actually think about it, it's people do the same. They take these principles of what they should do, what they shouldn't do, day to day, and it's based off of the judgments of another person. Oh, I don't want to say that, or else what they're going to give you eternal condemnation and judge you for it. I don't want to show it. People are scared to show up, people are scared to be themselves, and it's fear based, based off of other people, similar to the way that people are fearing God, if that makes sense. So it seems like there is this hierarchy and the real question that we need to be asking is like okay, but why are we acting certain ways? What's the intention behind our actions? What's the foundation? Because it seems like we're going in this circle from religion to society, and we obviously know that religious principles determine a lot of social norms. Yeah, we need to be asking ourselves like what's the reason for our fear-based compass? Why is fear the center of many people's compass?

Ehi Obanor:

I feel as though it's just life is so cyclical, but I feel as though, okay, these decisions, or the lack of decision making thereof, comes from a place of fear. The reason why people don't step out of their fear mindset is there needs to be like a collective understanding of like my life is going to reflect back to me what I'm doing. Like your life is only going to be as fruitful as your action. Your life is going to be as as bare or as empty or or scarce as your mindset.

Ehi Obanor:

I used to have a very big fear of rejection, and not in the sense of like someone was going to come and tell me like oh, no, I will.

Ehi Obanor:

I had so much social anxiety I really didn't even care what anybody else was going to say to me. It was just more so like I had this internal and I'm to this day, I'm so sure this internal like compass of what is what is morally quote-unquote ethic like right, like should I be doing this? Like how is this going to? And it's hardly ever like, the focus is hardly ever me, it's what. It's literally like the like how is this going to affect like people? Or how is this going to affect my future, or how is this going to affect so and so? But at the end of the day, it's like what I feel is, though, if people were to really look back and think about the things they're afraid to do, a lot of the times it's things that are beneficial for you. That's the crazy part. That is the crazy part, I feel like sometimes, that fear starts to come in when people start to put their ideas and put themselves first. I don't think that's a coincidence either okay.

Kemi Marie:

so it's actually interesting that you say that, just because people can experience. The first thing is this fear that comes when you start stepping out of the shoulds and the judgments of everybody else, and there's fear when you begin to care less about everybody else's compass Okay. But then there is the fear that you mentioned as well. It tends to go from oh, I fear this person's judgment then goes into another space.

Ehi Obanor:

Right, there's the fear of judgment, and then there's the fear of almost not having the judgment, of not doing it. It's like okay of not doing it. It's like okay because fear is just a driving force. When we do without it, it's like we don't even we don't trust our own judgment, like that's the thing. Sometimes people need that because fear is their motivator, like now I don't care or now I'm free from that. But it's like do I trust myself enough to just be and just do.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, there's definitely something to be said about moving away from other people's inner compasses just to move into your own and still struggle because you. I mean it takes time. It takes time to build up your own compass of what you should be doing and a lot of learning to listen to yourself, and I mean it is a whole lot of self-trust that comes with it, as well as just trying, trying things and figuring out if that's what you like. Um, but regardless, when we're talking about good and bad, what's right and wrong? Um, if I make the statement, religious principles determine a lot of social norms and dominant culture, and that's where the idea of good and bad, right and wrong, come from.

Kemi Marie:

Right, well, it's the religions in power in whatever society you're in, it's the dominant religions that will impact how you view right and wrong, good and bad. How do I know this? Because I went from a dominant religion, Christianity, to, I'll say, an African traditional religion, and in the African traditional religion, the idea of good and bad, right and wrong, is so different. The impact that that religion has on my idea of what's good and bad, right and wrong is so different. The impact that that religion has on my idea of what's good and bad, right and wrong has significantly changed from when I was Christian, so I?

Kemi Marie:

religion pushes the idea that your path and your way, your destiny, is individual to you. The things that you stay away from are individual. They're created for you. You have your own taboos, you have your own life path. You have your own destiny, your things that you're supposed to go after for you. That's your good. That's your good that might be different from your God sibling, who's in the same practice as you. They have a completely different destiny. Being able to see individual paths in individual ways is like okay, but then even there's an overarching theme of what it looks like to practice good character, and so I'm seeing, like okay, our view of right and wrong, good and bad mine specifically might still be very much determined by what's socially around me, uh-huh. So then how would you describe what is good and bad? Like, are we just saying this is an individual process, or are we saying that there are actually bigger entities at hand that could enact more complex, nuanced definitions for good and bad? Who's governing this?

Ehi Obanor:

shit. This is why, like philosophy is so interesting to me, because you're trying to find the source. No, but like there's, always like there's and, and that's the thing when you try to find sources just never a cycle.

Kemi Marie:

Literally, but we get to determine what that cycle is like what are we putting?

Ehi Obanor:

Is it the fear based, or is this something like that I used to think about a lot when I was taking philosophy. Is that, what like? What is our understanding of good and bad? What if our understanding of good and bad isn't like some moral or ethical origin, but it really just comes from people finding out what works and what doesn't, and what makes them feel right and what doesn't right? When you really think about, okay, what is good or bad, time is like never ending. That's the thing. There's been so much time for people to create, whether it be the Bible or manuscripts or just guidebooks that now feel so ordained to us. But at the time when those things were happening, it was probably just like yeah, that didn't make me feel good. There's a possibility it really could have just been somebody like how are we going to create unity or structure within our specific community and what are the things that we enjoy or have seen and enjoyed and have seen and have not enjoyed? And someone could have been like oh, someone said something to me.

Ehi Obanor:

They might not even have called it lying this was like I had these thoughts all the time. Someone might have just been like, oh, someone lied to me and I didn't like that, so let's just, let's say that said not a lot. You think that's how it went, like no, I've been thinking about this all the time. It's like who said? Like who said it? And it's like it's okay if it's for you, but I think I mean, it's okay if this is your specific doctrine or this is your specific philosophy.

Ehi Obanor:

But I think that, because humans are so nuanced and nobody is the same, I think it's scary to see how trying to create unity or oneness in a way that is limiting has, like, genuinely damaged the integration of so many different societies and cultures and just people, and even within societies. It's like, okay, you want to go out in the world today and make friends, but you now you got to deal with understanding, okay, this person have a different set of values and completely different philosophy, right and it's like if we were going to use a judge, judgment words or shame or shame ideology.

Ehi Obanor:

It's like, oh, like this is a bad person. Why are they taking off opinions and sides and stances on things? Not only could it bring a sense of just knowing of oneself, but just an appreciation and a zen for things being and just existing things and people and it just being what it is. Humans we just love to label things like they can just be them. They're just that. You know they're not some horrible, horrible, low value human being like they're just them and you're just you and that's okay.

Kemi Marie:

Heavy on that in regards to it just made me immediately think of people who are like oh, that person has bad vibes. What I hear you saying is that it's important that we don't box people in on that thought.

Ehi Obanor:

I think the reason why I think it's important to start doing that with other people is because for me it was and this just might be the Virgo on me it was easier for me to start doing that regarding other people than for myself, but the reason I was able to do it for myself was because I started doing it for other people, and the reason I even started this practice of just letting things be what they are, without labeling things as right or wrong or good and bad, was because I had a problem with that. Not that I was calling people bad people, but I realized that the reason why I had so many emotions tied to certain experiences or certain people or just certain stories that I wanted to stop telling myself or to stop reliving the way I did that was to just I'm like, why am I even calling this a bad experience? Like it was just an experience.

Ehi Obanor:

You know, I might have felt certain emotions that I didn't like to feel, but I also felt ones that I love. You know, like I feel so it brings a certain kind of peace when we're no longer classifying things so rigidly. And it brings a certain kind of peace but we're no longer classifying things so rigidly and it brings a certain love and appreciation for people. You know what helped me like emotionally release and just like cleanse and just let go of certain things and certain stories. I was telling myself just baggage was just letting things be. Baggage was just letting things be and the way I did that was like okay, I'm no longer looking at this ex or this past job as bad and wrong and it just was. It just was what it is.

Kemi Marie:

It just was, and it can be a makeup of multiple things. What I hear you saying how I'm interpreting this, my perspective, I would say, is that it's the black or white thinking that's creating the tension, and it actually makes me think of oppositions in astrology, because oppositions are known to create external situations. Conflicts it's these two planets that are in opposing positions. Sometimes that means that there's an external event that takes place, whereas that's like a full moon energy right, but or your Mercury, my moon, my sun is opposing my moon. Okay, that's an opposition. Usually that means something in the world is happening Some shit. That's where the energy is going to go.

Kemi Marie:

Then there's the conjunction energy. Say, zewa, new moon baby, we are birthing something new, right, like we're joining forces. That might be a more internal process, okay, but when we're thinking in terms of that opposition two separate things that are trying to act in their own ways, it's going to create something Right and that thing can be beneficial. But it can only be beneficial if you see both sides right. If I see my Gemini energy and it works with my Sag energy and I understand how they are supposed to relate and create something, okay, something good will happen.

Kemi Marie:

But if you have an opposition of religions or ideals or something going on in both ways are really set and stubborn in their ways, if everybody's standing here like, well, this is the way, this is how it's supposed to be, then whatever you are creating externally is most likely going to be contentious and destructive, not necessarily beneficial. And so, black or white thinking, thinking in extremes, that's what's creating this tension. That's what's creating most people feeling like imposters in a world that's trying to tell them they need to go one way, when potentially their inner body is in opposition to that.

Ehi Obanor:

Yeah.

Kemi Marie:

So ultimately it just kind of comes down to the conflicts. We see the head-butting, the resistance, in my opinion very natural. It's very natural when we are operating in such extremes of well, this is how it has to go, this is how it has to be. That person's all terrible, that person like I know, especially with difficult conversations and difficult people that we are dealing with, we want to see them in one light. We want to see but what happens? What happens when you fuck up Like are you all bad?

Ehi Obanor:

That's exactly what I was talking about. Like I literally had such a pivotal moment where I did something that I like, if it was someone else, I would have had so much judgment towards. But it's like I knew, I know because I know myself they just clicked. That was like if this were anybody else, I would have the old me, would have had so many judgments, I would have had so much shame tied to this individual or this experience. But it's like I'm me and I know it wasn't my intention, but the impact was impact regardless. So it's like I'm not about to start saying I'm a bad person now because I'm not. So it's like there's so many.

Kemi Marie:

What happens when you fuck? What happens when it's true? What happens when it's you what? What happens when you meet opposition and somebody tells you that your way is actually the wrong way? Right, like what's gonna happen if we continue to walk with this understanding that our compass is the only way and that our we are? Like what type of egotistical we're over here talking about what's right or wrong, what's good or bad?

Kemi Marie:

I there are levels to so many things. It's important that we see many different spaces, many different faces of all types of people. Also noteworthy if we're talking about people specifically everybody's going to meet somebody at a different phase of their life. You might meet the bad version of somebody quote, unquote, bad version and I might meet that bitch who is turning up and is the best person I've ever met. Right, you know what I mean. We have to hold space for all types of sides and I know it's difficult to do. A lot of the issues that we have in this world are from people walking around with this egotistical chip on their shoulder that is their perspective, it's their philosophy, it's their religion, it's the way they would do it.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, as this is the one way, and I think that's at the core of the issue.

Kemi Marie:

Honestly, it's these rigid ideas of right or wrong that keep, keeps people in boxes trapped others, ideas trapped to others, judgments trapped others. Past keeps them in fear, keeps them in like with something on their neck and then on top of that, additionally, additionally, we're using fear, shame and judgment to control other people or to make them feel like they're less than we're using these things as tools to devalue other people. But, like we said before, like what happens when it's you, when it's you, when you're the one who did something bad, then all of a sudden, now you have to unpack that shame and that judgment and that guilt. Sudden, now you have to unpack that shame and that judgment and that guilt, and the only reason we feel these things is because we are so highly considerate of the shame, judgment from others. It's a lot to unpack like. It's a lot to own work we're being. We're asking ourselves, as we heal, to hold space for the different facets of everybody. We're also asking ourselves to hold space for people just can't treat us any type of way.

Kemi Marie:

We're literally being asked, as we navigate this world, to be aware of our compass, to be aware of others compass, to find the people whose compasses align with ours.

Ehi Obanor:

It's it's just, it's a lot no it's a lot the central, like one of the central themes, is that I feel like as a human race, we just don't like to say we don't know, I don't know. This thing is bad, you know, I know how it feels for me, but I can't tell you what it feels like for you. I saw and I told you this the other day, I had seen a TikTok video of this girl talking about how she feels. Social media is a place where sometimes people find their identity and she doesn't like it.

Ehi Obanor:

And an example she gave was her. One of her best friends had called her one day and told her that, um, she was asking her if she's tripping because people were under another ghostic. That video where she was talking about things her, her and her boyfriend do that's like a trend, things Me and my boyfriend do that would probably give somebody a heart attack or like don't care about. And she was like everyone's tripping about this thing but me and my boyfriend do it or don't do it. I can't remember. She was like am I supposed to feel a way about it?

Ehi Obanor:

And she was like you feel how you feel and this is the thing I feel like we don't all share ideas or understandings or all empathize with certain boundaries or certain beliefs or opinions, like it is okay for something to not work for you or to not feel good for you Because, for example, you just might have trauma that that thing might trigger you. Someone else might have never encountered that thing before and it might be perfectly okay for someone to say or someone to do to them, but that doesn't mean that you're wrong and that person's right, or vice versa.

Kemi Marie:

It depends on where you're at in your healing journey. It depends on what you know, what you've had access to, what feels good to you is going to evolve over time, especially if you know that you're a healing person. Your right and wrong is going to change and that's the T like what's right and wrong as we have clearly seen through history. If it changes through history, it's for sure it's probably going to change within you as well. That's what growth is. That's what growth is. It's limiting to our growth to believe that we're all good, all bad, or that we're always right, we always wrong, that, like, maybe some shit was right in the moment, that moment, and maybe some shit was not right.

Kemi Marie:

In the next time have we done something we're like, oh, I would never do that again yeah, yeah, how many times, and honestly, like when we talk about morals and ethics, there are core values that people have. It's how I determine who I'm letting in my space. I like to see what somebody's principles are. You know, some people move consequence-based, where it's like I'm going to act based off of the consequences of this potential action. That's called consequentialism, but it determines the rightness or wrongness of actions by their consequences, and so that's a more fluid way of moving about things. But this is how complex right and wrong is.

Kemi Marie:

You could think about right or wrong in all of these philosophical principles and ideas, but then, when you really start to get to the nitty gritty of literally every situation and any potential outcome, you start to realize how are we? What really is rightness, what really is wrongness? How do we even everybody's going to have a different understanding, a different idea of a different philosophy that they, that they go off of some. For some it's duty-based religion. That's where their morals come from. This is my obligation to tell the truth. It's my obligation not to fuck. Before what age. It's like I get, that I support, that you go. But when we're connecting with other people, understanding that everybody's philosophy is different doesn't necessarily make them bad. Good whatever what they do with it is most important. I think that that would save us from a lot of the judgment that we carry for ourselves and for others in regards to how everybody's moving. Last question how do you personally determine what is right and what is wrong?

Ehi Obanor:

So for me, my philosophy, I would say um, I make decisions based off of one harm reduction. That's my biggest philosophy. Um, what decision can I make? Or, um, how can I move forward in a way that will reduce harm for others and obviously myself? And then what is going to bring me the most growth and evolution? And I focus on harm reduction, because sometimes that involves upsetting other people. But how can I reduce that?

Kemi Marie:

Right, but you're not always responsible for the hurt that others you have to go in this time so an example of the harm reduction or being considerate, or for me and my philosophy is okay.

Ehi Obanor:

I'm gonna use an example.

Ehi Obanor:

People know, oh so well, okay, so say, I meet someone on the dating app, right, and I go and we go out on our first date and after the date I realized I don't really think I'm interested in this person, or maybe three, let's do a month, let's say even a month, right, because people, you know feelings, actually might be involved after a month or two. So, say, I get to a point where I realize I'm not really interested in this person, right? So I'm using my philosophy, I have my path forward, right, that would bring me the most growth and that would be distancing myself or just cutting off this connection. I mean, now we filter in harm reduction. I'm not going to just ghost this person. I'm going to do harm by communicating. Hey, you know, I don't want to do whatever.

Ehi Obanor:

I want to say Right, and not only am I reducing harm, but I am following that growth mindset that I have, that evolution mindset that I have, where I'm speaking up for myself, I'm pleading my case. There are just certain behaviors or certain ways to act for me personally that make me feel good at the end of the day, even if it's like, you know, someone else might be hurt. You know, because at the end of the day, I also believe that your life is your life. You know, you can't stay somewhere that doesn't feel good to you because of shame or because of fear. Got to bring it back to the central theme you know sometimes what's best for you is not going to feel good to somebody.

Ehi Obanor:

It might not even feel good to you, especially if you, oh, you really empathize with other people or you have just been conditioned to have such a shame or um, perspective, but I'm putting others before you. But, yeah, I would say that harm reduction, growth and evolution and just love all around is my, that's my philosophy. Um, yeah, yeah, and it's been hard because I I still feel myself sometimes like, oh, like, is that the right thing to do? Is this the wrong thing to do? Is this good or bad? But that makes decisions harder, if we're really thinking about it, like. It makes decisions harder because it's not nuanced enough to be like okay, this is bad, because there are equal amount of reasons why this would be bad and good, you know, um, and if you were to filter in all of them and consider all of them, you would never make a decision, you know. So you're making, allowing their, allowing there to be nuanced and and space and acceptance is definitely the healthiest thing for me, the healthiest way to go about it.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, so you're taking on the right and wrong argument step by step. You are figuring out what's right step by step, situation by situation, and then also considering that there's layers to this especially if other people are involved.

Kemi Marie:

There's layers to this is decision, there's you, there's others, there's communication, and you're going based off of character, while making sure the consequences are hopefully net positive. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love that for a variety of reasons it is. It allows for that nuance, it allows for the complexity, situation by situation, and I appreciate that. I also want to point out that, as you go, situation by situation like, that's where healing comes in. That's where, as we grow, we know, we know new things. Sometimes we only know, we really only know, what's good and what's quote unquote bad, based on what we know, what we've learned. So that's where healing comes in and says okay, this is a different situation and that's the beauty of growth.

Kemi Marie:

Me personally, I obviously already touched on it and whatnot, whatnot, but my main focus for determining what's right, what's wrong, when it comes to right and wrong, heavily in, I'm heavily invested in character, as well as what is important and central to my path and my destiny, like what's going on in my destiny that determines what's right for me, what right spaces, what right people. What I'm involved in is based upon my destiny and the goals that I have for myself and you feel it. You feel it in your body. You feel it in your dreams and your visions and your goals. That's where you figure out what's right for you. It is based upon faith. It's based upon intuitive knowing, understanding yourself. That's how you know what's right.

Kemi Marie:

Fear there might be fear if you need to take a leap for something. How I move and how I always suggest you move towards your path, and the way is going towards what lights you up, what makes you feel confident and what makes you feel elevated, like you're stepping into something new, what makes you feel big and bold. That is, I would say, the way. That is your way, at least for the moment, at least for the moment. Heavy on my astrology, heavy on my destiny, at least for the moment, heavy on my astrology, heavy on my destiny. This is how I know, like I know, what is in alignment with me, and I also know that let's not act from places of fear of what others may say, fear of what others may think, fear of how people might judge you.

Ehi Obanor:

If that's the place that we're moving from, we're probably just building more fear within ourselves and within spaces, putting ourselves in boxes, and it doesn't last for long heavy on, it doesn't last for long, and I was, and I was gonna say uh before, because you just made me think about something is sometimes the things that feel good to us are like it's scary. If you have been acting or going after things or making decisions or moving from a place of shame and judgment, things that you know, you know subconsciously or deep down that you want, or even places you just want to go, goes you want to have, you can know uh, or just like foreshadow that that thing is going to make you happy, but it still feels scary, you know. So I don't want people to think that, like you should only be doing the things that make you feel good, because sometimes the things that make you feel good or feel good are just come from a place of comfort and they're not good for you at all. They're actually very unhealthy. So you just have this, just have discernment in what that means and be for real with yourself, challenge yourself.

Ehi Obanor:

The things that are meant for you are not always going to Physiologically and physically, emotionally. Sometimes it's literally going to feel like there's a wall. It might feel like it's just incapable, it's impossible for you. But if you are using your own compass and you know what you want and that is just the. You know your goal is on the other side of this feeling or this limiting belief or this block. Go for the thing regardless. Go for the thing regardless.

Ehi Obanor:

Yeah, yeah, never yeah.

Kemi Marie:

Pursue that.

Ehi Obanor:

Don't let fear.

Kemi Marie:

don't let fear stop you don't let, don't let fear, stop you, period. That's actually what it comes down to in terms of society when we talk about what is right and wrong. That is definitely a more communal thing, but if we keep in mind that everybody is an individual, then this is at least how I walk. I keep in mind that everybody has different philosophy. Keep in mind that everybody is a different individual, which means when I connect with people, I'm seeing who they are. If we mesh, then we mesh, but the determination of what's right and wrong socially or how we connect is up to the people in the space, and that comes through communication. We have to commune with each other, we have to become one with each other to really figure out what our philosophies are, if we vibe, if we don't, if this is a space for us, and I would say that that's how that goes.

Kemi Marie:

I also do believe there's a duty. We do have duties, we do have obligations to our community. That's not something that everybody believes, you know, some people are like it's just me, and that's okay. But I also do think we have a duty and an obligation to care for our community, whomever. That is community, that's beneficial. So that's another layer to it, but as you move.

Kemi Marie:

I think our overall idea is that we cannot continue to keep each other or ourselves in these rigid boxes of right and wrong, of good or bad, because that, ultimately, is what's causing a lot of the tension and the discord that we are experiencing. There's not enough seeing each other. There's just a whole lot of judgment and shame, and trying to push people into spaces of this is the way Everybody's running around like shaking, with their head cut off, trying to figure out the way, when really maybe we just need to stand in a circle, look at each other and appreciate what everybody got going on like, and if we don't like it, we could go to a different circle you are not never stuck you ain't a tree, you can move.

Kemi Marie:

Yeah, that's exactly that, but ahim, thank you so much for when, for joining, of course, I feel like we talked about so much, so I'm really excited to like unpack it and then I and this would be your chance to say anything else um, what I want to say?

Ehi Obanor:

I just hope that this conversation because it's a podcast, but I just feel like this was us communing, this was us communing I hope it finds who it's meant to find and resonates with who it's meant to resonate with Obviously, feel free to share. Your life is your life, the decisions you make and the places you go. You should choose to go there because you want to and because it feels good, like Kimmy said, and because it challenges you. Do not be afraid of challenge. That's the thing. Growth happens on the other side of that fear and of that challenge.

Ehi Obanor:

Question yourself, question the things you're hearing, question the things you're seeing, question the things that people around you are trying to get you to get behind. Just question everything and create a world and a personhood that is your own. That is your own. Something I always tell myself is that, you know, I want to look back on my life at the end of my life and know that I lived a life that was my own, that I chose for myself, and I walked a path that was my own. You know, obviously I do believe in destiny and some things are really preordained, but your life is your own, you're never stuck anywhere. So just go out there and live your life. Please, please, be pleased. Let go of the shame, let go of the judgment, but that's all that is literally all to say yes, thank you for sharing.

Kemi Marie:

Last thing that I would say um, your inner compass is so important. So refuse to allow shame, judgment and fear to keep you. I mean, keep you. Don't let these things keep you, don't let it hold you. Refuse to allow the compass of others to overcome your own and be open to observing and understanding the way of others. You don't necessarily have to take it on and be in their way and be in their path. You're here to be in your own path. It's very important to flow with your energy, but just allow your inner compass to inform where you're going, the spaces you are going to be in, and just be open to change as you grow, evolve and determine what is right for you. So that is my piece.

Kemi Marie:

Thank y'all for listening to the Perspectives podcast. Thank you to Eki for being on this episode. There's so many things we can talk about, but I feel like this is a good one. I think it's just a good reminder to everybody what's what's right, what's right for them. So thank you, thank you, thank you and I'll see y'all next time. Bye.